Talk:Myyah Hawwa
Information initially taken from Wikipedia (history). Okay, since one editor was cautious about whether or not the recent info being edited out might be something in Perfect Works, I've found the scanlated PDF of Perfect Works and read through it. Very little of the last few month's edits agree with what's in the PDF, especially the stuff about Miang's plan for humanity, and in many cases, it even contradicts what's written here, even when you account for it being a translation. I'm going to do a quick light rewrite of the article to see if the community feels it's in keeping what the rest of the site. It won't be perfect, as I only read the parts relating directly to thsi article, but hopefully it'll provide a foundation. Tanyuu (talk) 01:18, December 19, 2015 (UTC) I wasn't sure whether to use Myyah or Miang in my edit, but I went with Miang as most English wikias tend to go by whatever is the official name for US/EU releases. However, as the redirects seem to be working okay, this may be a moot point. I apologize for making more work for you guys! Tanyuu (talk) 19:15, December 19, 2015 (UTC) The Brainwashing Thing Okay so, I moved this section off the main Xenogears to this, and now that I'm looking to redo lots of the Xenogears parts, I'm honestly thinking that it can be redone to be a bit more jokey and fun to read while getting across points about her plan. Anyone got opinions on doing that? Mjolna (talk) 01:07, December 26, 2015 (UTC) I like this idea. Let me try. I'll edit some, and you can see if you like it and run with it, or go with your own view. Maybe with a disclaimer that this is parody or some such? Someone can move it to a separate page if the community feels it's in bad taste.Tanyuu (talk) 04:37, December 26, 2015 (UTC) If it's bunk, it's bunk. We don't have to worry about Zecroline reverting edits anymore, so provided that you have strongly objective reasons for removing the prior material (see: Tanyuu's remarks at the top of this talk page) I say that it's not worth keeping. If no one outside of a few people are going to "get" why the parody material is here, it probably has no place existing in a primary article. Brevantes (talk) Yeah. While I did my edits (and it came to be a lot more serious in the end), I definitely don't mind it being taken out or edited even further.Tanyuu (talk) 00:49, December 27, 2015 (UTC) April There's parts of the section about Myyah's methods of brainwashing that seem to be more taking a bit of canon and using it to display personal views, especially the parts about her antagonizing vegetarianism, encouraging bad parenting, materialism, government, overworking, etc. For example, from what I remember, Myyah and higher ups such as Karellen used the Soylent Green system to ensure that the populace was kept in check (a point on the list that is canon), but I doubt people even realized what they were eating was meat or plant-based. While the inner city of Solaris parodied capitalistic culture, I doubt that was entirely something Myyah intentionally did by herself. I feel this section feels too much like a soapbox, and I think it's running into the same problems the last brainwashing list had. Tanyuu (talk) 00:23, April 30, 2016 (UTC) :Let me address each point: :*Meat eating and vegetarianism: Myyah wants humans to eat corpses because the corpses keep the Limiters of the populace, so of course she would resort to antagonizing non-meat eaters. Xenogears is a satire of the world of today, and we live in a world where vegetarians and vegans are mocked, ridiculed, laughed at, called "crazy", "bad hunters", viewed as "abnormal", etc. You're right, there's no proof Myyah did inact anti-veg policies, but that's why it says "This can be performed by antagonizing vegetarianism and veganism as much as possible." Note how it says CAN BE performed, not IS performed, so it's not stating it as a fact, just an (extremely likely) possibility as to how Myyah could push this agenda. :*Encouraging bad parenting: Myyah influences mothers to allow her children to KILL EACH OTHER IN NUCLEAR HOMOCIDES AND WARS. Yes, this IS bad parenting, among so many other reasons. Myyah is symbolic of a perverted mother (while Elly is symbolic of the opposite). This is the entire point to her character: perverted women and destruction of motherhood. :*Materialism: In Solaris, you enter the 2nd class district and everyone's obsessed about materialism and literally won't shut up about objects and materialism. You talk to a kid and he obsesses over pogo shoes. You talk to another kid and he obsesses over a hoverboard. You talk to a guy and he mentions how much he wants a TV. And there's a woman who's like "I feel like I want to buy stuff all the time!" The entire 2nd class district is a parody of materialism, and Myyah runs Solaris, so of course she influences the 2nd class district to engage in materialism and consumerism. :*Government: Could you be specific? The article doesn't say Myyah antagonizes government. It's moreso the opposite, really. :*Overworking: There's literally a scene in the 3rd class district where a worker bee has a mental breakdown and says "I CAN'T TAKE WORKING ANYMORE! EVERY DAY IS WORK, WORK, WORK! YOU HAVE NO WILL, THIS ISN'T LIVING!" and it is HEAVILY implied he's killed for speaking it. Of course, Myyah has influence in the overworking slaves. Again, she runs Solaris. :*"I doubt people even realized what they were eating was meat or plant-based": At the end of the day, Myyah still uses meat to enslave humanity - not JUST on Solaris - there are Soylent Systems all on the surface of the planet. :*"While the inner city of Solaris parodied capitalistic culture, I doubt that was entirely something Myyah intentionally did by herself." Myyah is literally the QUEEN of Solaris, there's a 99 percent chance she did. Again, Myyah uses pawns and puppets to do her bidding, so she's still responsible for Solaris' rules, laws, etc. :I'll wait for your reply. —AlexShepherd ツ 02:06, April 30, 2016 (UTC) :Thanks for your reply! :- While I can see your point about vegetarianism, it feels like it opens the door to everyone else to put in similar statements. For instance, I could say 'This can be done by convincing people that Soylent Green is healthier when it isn't', while someone else could put in 'This can be done via GMOs', 'She did this through smart packaging and commercials' etc. I myself feel the more crucial point here is that the Soylent Green System is using pieces of transformed human beings. It's cannibalism, a taboo that many people, no matter what they eat, find issue with, especially since it's being served to people without their awareness. That's pretty terrible. :- While Myyah can become any woman once her host body is killed, and she's plenty terrible in her acts as those women, how does that equate to her influencing mothers to send their children into wars? I think it's easier just to say she's influenced wars to happen, especially when she needs to restart humanity. :I think the point you made in your reply about Myyah symbolizing the opposite of the mother, which is represented by Elly, actually makes for a clearer picture. When Elly gets closer to 'awakening', she acts as a mother, and often takes on problems beyond her own ability to shoulder them. Myyah does the exact opposite, only on a grander scale. :- As for materialism and overworking, if it's based on who's in charge, we could say that Karellen and Cain have equal hands. :- As for my point about government, I wasn't clear. It was referencing this point: "Convince humanity to surrender to concepts such as "government", "authority", "statism", "military", "law", "religion", "money", "countries", "nations"." :It just feels like many of these points are reaching too much, in order to make Myyah be this strawman for everything we dislike in the real world. She's plenty terrible in the game canon as is, so I feel that by placing what we feel are bad things on top of that canon, we're just using these pages as a way to promote our own causes. Tanyuu (talk) 03:56, April 30, 2016 (UTC) I wouldn't say Karellen is equivalent to Myyah, because Myyah is almost 9500 years older than Karellen, so she knows what's done. Karellen is more "innocent" in this aspect. But yes, you're right, Karellen and Cain are both responsible for enslaving Solarians, but it doesn't mean Myyah is exempt from her actions too, of course. Xenogears is also based on the real world to a huge degree, so I wouldn't think of it as far-fetched. How about I let you rewrite it while you keep my thoughts in mind, and we come to a consensus? —AlexShepherd ツ 04:17, April 30, 2016 (UTC) Sure, I can give it a go next time I can sit down and type something out. That, or someone else who's inspired. We'll all figure something out. Tanyuu (talk) 04:42, April 30, 2016 (UTC) I had some points, but they felt better added and tailored into the personality section. Still unsure of the brainwashing article, but until I figure out a good way to approach a rewrite, I'm not going to touch it. Tanyuu (talk) 04:59, May 5, 2016 (UTC)